Friday, September 15, 2006

The subjectivity of morality and the moral majority? How do we come to terms with 6 billion empirical perspectives?

You know, it bugs me when people of like mind sit around and talk about like things in a mutually gratuitous rallying session. For that reason I will see how long I can go without revealing too much of my leftness or rightness (since those unfortunate polarizing labels are so hard to avoid). I would love to somehow have the opportunity to get a discussion going with people from as far left, right and middle (how far is middle?) on any practical, political or spiritual subject to bridge the gap that is instantly created with these labels. There's a quote I heard once that I like: "a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged." conversely, how about "a liberal is a conservative that got laid off one month before their retirement would have kicked in"? We are all people concerned with keeping the bills paid, a roof over our heads, food on the table and that our children get every opportunity they can to have a good life. Black, white, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or pagan we can mostly agree on those fundamentals, can't we? What else can we agree on? I'd love to hear comments on that subject: what are the universal truths or values amongst us?

34 Comments:

At 8:43 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, you know, we talk all the time, so I won't get into this. But the universal truth is that you be good to one another. Don't kill each other.

And people who sit around with like minds open no new dialogues. They are just in a fishbowl, preaching to the choir.

okay, i got into it.

Now I'm going. I look forward to seeing who says what.

Yer brave, matey!

 
At 9:16 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tolerance.

Respect -- especially respect for personal freedoms.

Forgiveness -- toward others and ourselves.

Love -- agape.

High fences.

 
At 9:32 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having a life of extreme privelidge, all I know is my own perspective, which is to aknowledge and be grateful for all that I have, to use the gifts in my life to thrive, and then to love and give all I can.
What I don't understand is how the powers of the world can make so many decisions based on something other that what will benefit the people.
I love you guys and it has been so fun to have a little window into your lives! Love to the kids!
Bodhi

 
At 9:43 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Wow! Nice to hear from you Bodhi! Thanks for your comments Quilldancer. so what we have so far is

1. Be good to one another
2. Don't kill each other
3. Tolerance
4. Respect-- especially for personal freedoms
5. Forgiveness of others and ourselves
6. High fences
7. Acknowledge and be grateful for all that you have.
8. Use the gifts in life to thrive and give back (paraphrasing so correct me if I get it wrong, Bodhi)

For discussion, I'd like more clarity on number 6, "High Fences." Are you talking about defenses against physical harm? enemies? or privacy? unclear. Care to clarify? Cheers. TM

 
At 9:59 PM , Blogger Charlene Amsden said...

High fences -- metaphorical for some, but for me, I'll settle for the physical one. My neighbor man wears low slung jeans and one-size-too-small t-shirts. Other than the full moon at high noon he's been a pretty good neighbor, I just think he'd be a better one if we had a fence.

 
At 10:13 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, Tom, you are certainly never one to shy away from any subject, are you? And as for what we all want, it is related to the respect thing already mentioned, but don't we all want validation? To know that we're worthy as a person?

 
At 10:18 PM , Blogger Charlene Amsden said...

You know, Brooke, I didn't even think of validation -- probably has something to do with my ego.

 
At 10:19 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

aah,great imagery: full moon at high noon. I can just see this guy (as much as I don't want to). Make the pictures stop! Okay, so maybe we need fences. Let's call it privacy, then. Fair enough? TM

 
At 10:23 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Hi Brooke, welcome to the discussion. So we'll add validation-- to know that you are a worthy person to the list. this assumes, however, that you need to get that from outside yourself; That someone else or a community or society determines whether you are worthy or not. Am I mistaken? comments? TM

 
At 10:31 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are correct, Tom, in that if you need outside validation that you're worthy as a person you are allowing a community or society to determine your worthiness. And I'm not saying that's healthy, but don't far too many people do that? And isn't "belonging" on Mazlow's heirachy of needs?

 
At 10:34 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

SUMMARY:

1. Be good to one another
2. Don't kill each other
3. Tolerance
4. Respect-- especially for personal freedoms
5. Forgiveness of others and ourselves
6. Privacy
7. Acknowledge and be grateful for all that you have.
8. Use the gifts in life to thrive and give back
9. To recieve validation--to know that you're a worthy person

 
At 10:38 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Hi Brooke,

Let's see, Abaraham Mazlow, right, the self-actualization guy, right? I like the word "belonging" better than validation in that it implies community, or sense of home. Maybe that would be a universal truth angle we could explore that doesn't sound to co-dependant. As sense of belonging. hmm. I like that. TM

 
At 10:39 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, I want in on this. QD, (as Tom calls you...ain't that sweet? Sounds like cutey) I like how you shift your metaphors...suddenly it's the mooning man. Just tell him, CRACK KILLS.

Anyway, wow. You all are getting heady. Tom is hooked. Another blogger junkie.

 
At 10:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right, Tom. Right guy. And belonging does have healthier connotations than validation. So we'll go with belonging. By the way, I miss you guys!

 
At 10:47 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Brooke,

We miss you too. When are you going to be back in our neck of the woods?

 
At 10:49 PM , Blogger Charlene Amsden said...

Is belonging always a good thing?

 
At 10:55 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

QD,

I dunno. Put belonging into a negative context for me and we'll find out. A universal truth is somthing that is always true to everyone, I suppose. So, a single negative connotation could shoot something down.

 
At 10:59 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

How many universal truths can there be? I mean, love thy neighbor kinda means, "don't kill your neighbor" so what does belonging have to do with any of it, except maybe, that we just all love one another as God's creation and by default we "belong"?

 
At 11:00 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

NEW SUMMARY:

1. Be good to one another
2. Don't kill each other
3. Tolerance
4. Respect-- especially for personal freedoms
5. Forgiveness of others and ourselves
6. Privacy
7. Acknowledge and be grateful for all that you have.
8. Use the gifts in life to thrive and give back
9. To have a sense of belonging

 
At 11:06 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

CJ,

You breached the hot topic: God

Is God a universal truth? Is not killing each other a Universal truth or even a religious truth? For example, is it a Christian truth not to kill each other?

If so, can a Christian support the war in Iraq or even fight in it? And if so how and under what pretext?

Maybe "Don't kill each other" is not a universal truth or value, just as mabye God is not a universal truth or value.

 
At 11:08 PM , Blogger Charlene Amsden said...

I belong to that group of people who wear the label "abused children" I belong to that group of people called, "fat." I know this isn't what Brooke meant by "belonging." I think perhaps the word, "acceptance" might be more valid. Universally we long to be accepted for who we are. Universally we fear it will never happen.

 
At 11:15 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Aaah. I see. so belonging can mean labeling as in "belonging to." The kind of belonging Brooke and I are talking about is the sense of belonging as in having a place in the world, a safe place, a home a community a sense of family. I say "sense of family" because the family we get is sometimes different than the one we find along the way and create for ourselves. Just as in your example, family may not be positive, but the "idea" of family, of familiars to whom we"belong" and feel comfortable with, is something we can create with those we come to trust whether blood related or not. So, what's a word that means that: Fellowship?

 
At 11:20 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Wait a minute. I missed "acceptance" on the list. QD mentioned it and I didn't highlight that right off. Acceptance is huge. It may not be the same thing as the interpretation of belonging that Brooke and I were talking about but it is a better alternative for "validation."

 
At 11:20 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tom and auntie, you both have good points. Yes, what I meant was a sense of belonging, as Tom stated. But auntie is right that we do all long to be accepted as we are, don't we? Well, except for maybe sociopaths who care absolutely nothing about what anyone else thinks.

 
At 11:24 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

NEWEST SUMMARY:

1. Be good to one another
2. Don't kill each other
3. Tolerance towards others
4. Respect-- especially for personal freedoms
5. Forgiveness of others and ourselves
6. Privacy
7. Acknowledge and be grateful for all that you have.
8. Use the gifts in life to thrive and give back
9. Acceptance
10.Fellowship

 
At 11:28 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Oops! Somehow love ---agape got dropped. I don't think we want to lose that one.

Newest list:

1. Be good to one another
2. Don't kill each other
3. Tolerance towards others
4. Respect-- especially for personal freedoms
5. Forgiveness of others and ourselves
6. Privacy
7. Acknowledge and be grateful for all that you have.
8. Use the gifts in life to thrive and give back
9. Acceptance
10.Fellowship
11.Love--agape

 
At 11:52 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Well my first night blogging has been a lot of fun. Thanks for those of you who participated in this maiden voyage. This old man is signing off to get some sleep. The baby wakes up early.

Peace and good night.

 
At 9:07 AM , Blogger Charlene Amsden said...

Tom, direct yourself to the google, "search all blogs" button on the top of your post and you will find many people to converse with. I am going to get my friend, Rob, and send him this way. I think he'll enjoy talking to you.

Id God universal? He thinks he is -- people don't so much agree.

 
At 2:45 PM , Blogger Nessa said...

I like to say things on occasion that are the exact opposite of what I believe just to get people to speak up.

People who believe so emphatically that they are right make me very nervous.

Welcome to blogworld.

 
At 4:26 PM , Blogger Unknown said...

A very fitting discussion for your first blog. I'm glad your posting such thoughts and musings.

I've got your blog on my rss feeder, so I'll be watching.

 
At 8:49 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Goldennib, you're talking about dogma are you not? It seems that that is where you hit a brick wall in communicating...If someone is sure that they are right then anyone who believes differently is wrong. So how does someone arrive at new conclusions or hear anybody from that mindset?

However, you started your comment by saying that you like to say things that are the opposite of what you believe to get them to speak up. Interesting tactic. care to share an example?

 
At 8:55 PM , Blogger Just Tom said...

Hello Robert,

Please to make your acquaintance. Cindra has told me many good things about you. I believe that you're the Alaskan squirrel cam guy, if I'm not mistaken. Cheers, TM

 
At 4:41 AM , Blogger Unknown said...

Yes, The Great Alaskan Red Squirrel Cam is mine, or should I say it's my little red squirrels cam. They are the stars not me, I'm just the fellow who provides the goodies for them to snack on. In turn every once in a while they will pose for me to take a picture. They own this place, I'm just renting from them.

bob

 
At 11:54 AM , Blogger Nessa said...

Tom: One of my favorites -

Men (as in people of the male persausion, not the collective human population) are evil, no good and self-centered.

This comment seems to upset certain women and men beyond belief. I've been called some interesting names for making this comment; D

I also say things that I believe that upset people, such as, God has a great sense of humor. After all, He created man (as in the collective human population.)

 

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